The Space In Between Podcast

Leadership Masterclass: A Call for Reflective Practice with Kaye Foster

• Leigh Morgan • Season 1 • Episode 20

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In a world marked by increasing polarization and fragmentation, effective leadership demands the ability to navigate complexity, make informed decisions, and maintain perspective amidst relentless change and pressure. How can leaders rise to the occasion, stay grounded, and drive performance?

My guest, Kaye Foster, offers deep insights and wisdom on this very topic. As one of the corporate sector’s most respected and inspiring leaders, Foster draws from her faith practice and unwavering commitment to helping her portfolio companies, colleagues, and clients reach their fullest potential. She emphasizes the importance of grounding leadership in core beliefs and values, which, in turn, shape decision-making and behavior. Through compelling examples, she illustrates how this approach fosters resilience and purpose. She also shares her personal journey as an immigrant who ascended to the highest levels of the corporate and venture capital sectors.

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Hello and welcome to the. Space in between podcast. I'm your host Lee Morgan. Again, this podcast is for listeners who are fed up. Up with the hyperpolarized nature of the world today. And who crave. Craves spaces where current events can be discussed in construct. enlightening and delightful ways. Let's get.

Leigh Morgan:

This podcast is a platform to explore current events and issues that impact our lives, communities, and organizations that we are a part of. It is hard to go through a day without some reminder. That the world is experiencing a tremendous amount of upheaval, fragmentation and turmoil. And yet, amidst all of this, there are many wise voices helping keep us grounded and able to navigate forward. Today, we will hear from one of those wise voices and explore how leaders can maintain equilibrium, integrity, and make thoughtful decisions about how to drive performance. and build vibrant work cultures. Along the way, we will also consider the role of faith in a leader's journey and how we can bridge divides across many dimensions of difference. My guest today is Kay Foster. She is a remarkable leader that oozes integrity and a deep passion for building high performing organizations that change the world for good. Her work today focuses In venture capital, where she's a partner at arch ventures and she serves on many roles of different biotech companies. She's a much sought after advisor to CEOs as well, where she shares her experience from 25 plus years as an executive in healthcare and biotech., K is a person of deep religious faith and is board chair at glide Memorial church in San Francisco, where I was a member and I have many fond memories of. worshiping with Kay was some really amazing gospel. So if anyone hasn't been to glide church, if you get to San Francisco, run there, it's amazing. So Kay, thank you for joining me today on the space in between podcast.

Kaye Foster:

Well, Lee, first of all, thank you for creating the space to do this because these are important conversations that you've been having. And, I really appreciate taking the time, not just to chat with me, but the chat with the breadth of the folks that you've spoken with, and really to create an opportunity, not just for space, but also for me, quite frankly, for pause. Because that's really what, I think you're up to, shall I say. And then second, thank you for the shout out for Glide. Truly a place of a refuge in the midst of all the challenges that we're facing now, has been doing that for many, many decades, and continues to be a place of refuge in the midst of troubling times. So again, iterate your welcome to anyone who wants to come on down and visit us.

Leigh Morgan:

Yay. It's good. Great to hear that. And yes, glide memorial church, folks. Google it. You'll learn a lot about this amazing institution, which is really all about service to the community and opening doors to all people. Well, I shared a little bit about your career, which has taken you from executive roles in the corporate sector to venture capital and also to boardrooms. What do you want listeners to know about your work and the passion that you bring to it?

Kaye Foster:

Yeah. so let me start by saying that, um, I will give you the tagline of how I describe the trajectory of my life. I talk about from the toilet to the tower. that tagline really talks about the fact that I came to the US when I was 19 years old at 50 in my pocket. And I came here seeking. Not a better life because I grew up in Barbados, which by all intents and purposes is an extraordinary place. I came here and my very first jobs, like many immigrants, was I was in a service industry, cleaning bathrooms. So that's my point about from the toilet and over the career, over the course of my career. As you indicated, I actually ended up being the chief HR officer for Johnson Johnson, and my office was in a big white tower in New Brunswick. So I often say, you know, part of my journey is from the toilet to the tower, and I use that. inspiration for others about what is possible, uh, in, our, in our, you know, in our, even though it may be troubled in our country. So back to your question, the origin of my work really, I would say is rooted in this early upbringing in Barbados. I grew up in a nuclear family. We had very, very deep connections and deep faith. And what was interesting is about that is it always assured me that a new day was possible. So, you know, whether it was, and for us, it was the weather most of the time was and bright and sunshiny, but even when it rained, when we had this phenomenon in the island, and we still do, where it rains almost every day for about 15 minutes. it rains very, very hard for 15 minutes, and then the sun comes back out. So I think some of that also really informs how I come to this work. then I would say the second is, um, I was privileged to have the parents that I did. And my parents really focused on education and excellence. And excellence was really my dad. He was a musical prodigy. So from very early on, excellence really was I think what defined him and then for my mom, she was one of seven children. She was the only girl and the eldest and she was taken out of school before she finished high school to help raise her brothers. So for her. Education was so critical because she understood and she, she grew up, always really intellectually curious and constantly craving, information, knowledge. And a lot of those. You know, those traits that I got from my mom and my dad really do inform how I come to this, you know, how I come to this work of leadership and we can talk some more about it, but that is really what I bring to the work. It's this focus on community connection, faith, and excellence.

Leigh Morgan:

it's really inspiring to hear that and I love the metaphor of storms that come and they pass. I'm struck by this sense of place, the rootedness of place that you describe right and how that's informed. So this, uh, you mentioned that you're a practical optimist, many times and so that practicality of storms will come but but they always do pass I wonder if that's part of what has informed you.

Kaye Foster:

It does because, um, think the other thing that I think a lot about is, you know, our time on the earth is transient, right? And even though you and I know that there are plenty of attempts at extending life beyond the natural order. Just given the nature of our work in biotech, there's quite a bit of work on how to extend life beyond it's not what I call the natural order. we, our time here is transient. And for me, it's really more about the arc of life, as opposed to really focusing on each of these individual, moments or sessions or times. I think we can get so, and you mentioned this yourself, we can get so focused and distracted by what's happening right in the middle of us that we miss the arc of time. And I think, uh, and that's where I think like my faith and my, Just thinking about the longevity of, the experience is what helps me understand that, you know, this too shall pass is something that, my mom would often say. And she would say that, back to the point about the weather, she would say that about the weather, right? But

Leigh Morgan:

And every day you kind of knew that that actually happened. Yeah.

Kaye Foster:

every day it

Leigh Morgan:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have to hear more about the role of faith. So obviously this was important. You've mentioned it already. as a leader now, as an adult, someone who's literally, you know, the metaphor of the tower of being head of HR for a giant corporation. And you've had many other roles. Now you are a investor.

Kaye Foster:

Mm hmm.

Leigh Morgan:

And so you're around a lot of people, a lot of leaders who are high ambition, really trying to do amazing things. How, has your spiritual practice evolved over time as your career has evolved.

Kaye Foster:

So it's so interesting. Um, and I hope this resonates with you, but for me, leadership is a spiritual practice. don't make the distinction right for me, is a spiritual practice and is that spiritual practice and this belief that informs how I come to leadership. So what do I mean by that? And again, I want to be respectful that spirituality, faith, those terms mean different things to up to different people. So I always want to be expansive and inclusive in my thinking. But for me, spirituality is really around two things. Number one is. Living your purpose and number two is connection to something greater than yourself. And if I think about purpose, I'll share with you what my purpose is because it's, it's what has been guiding me and my life and the leadership roles that I take. My purpose is I give voice to the voiceless. And I've been very, very deliberate about living into that purpose. And what does that mean? If I, if I take that to the leadership domain, giving voice to the voiceless requires leading from a place of compassion, authenticity, and integrity, which is at the heart of spiritual practices. Right?

Leigh Morgan:

Yes.

Kaye Foster:

right. And if I translate that to leadership behaviors.

Leigh Morgan:

Yes.

Kaye Foster:

do I show compassion? It requires deep listening. It requires listening to learn. requires openness to being challenged, right? It means meeting people where they are. So for me, the reason why I think leadership is a spiritual practice, because I can translate my spiritual practices to a set of leadership behaviors and the leadership behaviors are grounded in that spiritual practice.

Leigh Morgan:

That is so clear how you articulate that. And when you work with your clients, so I know you also have this consulting business and work with a lot of clients, leaders, CEOs, executive teams, and boards, this is a wellspring of your own belief. You know, your inside informs your outside. You've just described how that works and how you, um, manifest this every day. In your practice and as you're working with leaders, especially during this kind of crazy time of hyper polarization, there's a lot of fragmentation, there's a lot of turbulence in the markets, right? And leaders are paid to try to navigate that. What are you finding in terms of leaders and their reflective practice? I use the word reflective, you know, because sometimes the word spirit or faith practice. Are you finding more conversations? With leaders about creating space for pause or is it still a little taboo?

Kaye Foster:

So, so it's, and you're absolutely correct because language does matter and you can either use language to open an aperture or to close an aperture. And I really do try to be expansive. So it's why I say, um, spirituality means so many different things to others. And I approach that with the leaders that I work with. I always start, whether it's a coaching conversation, working with a CEO, whatever it is. I always start with an inquiry about them. So, how are you doing today? And when I ask them that question, I am asking, because to your point, that is inviting them to pause. Because the other thing I've discovered, which surprised me, very few people ask them that question.

Leigh Morgan:

Wow.

Kaye Foster:

I am absolutely shocked. And I don't know if it is Because people don't want to know if they think it might be crossing a boundary.

Leigh Morgan:

Hmm.

Kaye Foster:

you know, leaders want to show up. For some reason, they believe that showing up, being buttoned up and tight, very, very tight is appropriate. So I always start with, how are you doing today? And I will, they'll usually say something, it depends. Some of them will say, yeah, I'm good, I'm good. And I say, okay, that's really interesting. You're good. does that mean? You know what's what's really keeping you awake at night or if you if I were to give you an hour without any time on your calendar without any requirements. would come to mind? Right. And it's really interesting. That's my point about creating space

Leigh Morgan:

Yeah.

Kaye Foster:

reflection. Right. And making it okay for that reflection, because I'm really clear with them that and you will talk about this leaders today are overwhelmed over. I mean, they're overbooked. They literally go from meeting to meeting nine times out of ten, they have overlapping meetings. it's rare that space created for them to be reflective. So I don't think it is that don't want to be reflective. You know, it's finding the time to be reflective. And what I've taken on is creating the pause or creating the place. For them to be reflective and not to your point, not calling it reflection,

Leigh Morgan:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kaye Foster:

approaching it in a way that almost gives them permission. Right? So if you had an hour in your day where there was nothing pressing on you,

Leigh Morgan:

Is it what, what would you do? What, what,

Kaye Foster:

you do? Right?

Leigh Morgan:

what do you want to do?

Kaye Foster:

and you had an

Leigh Morgan:

Yeah.

Kaye Foster:

just scribble your notes, what would you write? So it's, it's creating a place where they can actually do that comfortably.

Leigh Morgan:

This notion of creating pause, I think is really important. And a lot of my listeners, some are. CEOs and some aren't, you know, some are, you know, the rest of us that go through the day and have meaningful jobs and that might not be, you know, in the kind of roles that you have had. Is it accurate that this encouragement of creating space for pause is relevant for everyone, especially in today's turbulent times.

Kaye Foster:

Completely agree. And I mean, it's the, it's a practice that I have instilled even in my children and have instilled in them from very early on. My daughter is an avid journaler and I've given her journals over time. Interestingly enough, my son, um, He uses his phone because, you know, that's what people do. He uses his phone, but he does do that. And every day, part of my practice is sending them something, right, that causes them. And it may be, we call it either a word of wisdom could be something that I read. But every day I send them something that causes them. And again, to your point. not like they go and journal about it, but it's a bit of a aha. Right.

Leigh Morgan:

yeah, I

Kaye Foster:

that is irrespective of where you are on your leadership journey. And oh, by the way, what you reminded me of when you just said that is When I think about leadership, leadership isn't structural. Leadership is attitudinal and behavioral. And I always talk about small L leadership. I want every single individual, whatever domain you are operating in, whether that's personal. Whether that's professional, philanthropic, whatever domain, showing up as starting with self leadership, because that's what we're talking about. Reflection is a process of self leadership. So how do you start with the self and that equips you to be able to extend that to others?

Leigh Morgan:

think that's so wise and it also helps us get away from the sense of leaders are people who have a title about leadership, right? Which is the structure, you use the word structure

Kaye Foster:

Mm hmm.

Leigh Morgan:

the sense of empowerment and high agency is so cool, seems to me to be core to this. And I'm thinking about the question you ask your, um, clients of how are you doing today? You know, that fundamentally is I saying to your client, I see you and I'm curious about you.

Kaye Foster:

Yes.

Leigh Morgan:

And I do think for those people who have a structural leadership role, as you get higher and higher up in organizations, fewer people ask you that question for whatever reason. And I think people project onto you that. You're, you're a leader and you're not like this fully human person who's, who makes mistakes and does good things. I know that's my, my history, right, of a beautiful mix of all of, all of that. But I, but I think fundamentally being seen is what we're talking about here and that just stands out to me. Does that make sense? Mm

Kaye Foster:

makes perfect sense. And therefore it goes back to the point that you raised, which is not only leaders who, know, sit at the top of organizations need to be seen. That's part of the human condition,

Leigh Morgan:

hmm.

Kaye Foster:

Every one of us has some part of us that quote unquote, needs to be seen, and therefore. asking that question really does say, I see you and I'm curious about how you're doing. There's so much in that. I mean, I, I had, it's so interesting. I had that conversation with, and this is a nose kind of PE. online guy who is a driver we were, on a call together. And when we started the call, he was coughing. I said, Hmm, how are you doing? It sounds like you're having, you know, some sort of respiratory something. entire, the rest of the call was about him and I just kept probing and I said, well, tell me a little bit about how you're caring for yourself, right? I know that you are really high octane, there's a lot of pressure, there's pressure from the investors, the team, you've had to do some really tough things. Like when are you taking time to, to literally just breathe? I said, think about respiratory, right? Are you, when are you getting fresh air in? Right. are you actually literally and, and literally an hour later, we're still talking. And at the end, he said, what happened? And I said, life happened. Right.

Leigh Morgan:

Your life happened. Yeah,

Kaye Foster:

so few people are in that. it's connection, uh, cause, cause remember back to the point you raised about how disparate and disruptive and distracted we are. Right. All of that is the opposite of being in connection.

Leigh Morgan:

that is, that's right.

Kaye Foster:

of fact, increasingly, as we are more and more diverse and disperse, we actually are not seeking connection. And we're not seeking connection because we're scared of the confrontation.

Leigh Morgan:

Yes, that that is that feels right to me and that actually was part of the inspiration for me to start this podcast was a sense of increasing polarization in public spaces. And when I say public spaces like x is not a public space. Everyone. It's a private company. Facebook is a private company. We sometimes talk about them as public forums, but I get very lit up about that

Kaye Foster:

Mm hmm.

Leigh Morgan:

But nonetheless, we do find people kind of going to their corners a lot listening to the same echo chamber and one consequences. I think that's why we feel like there's more polarization. And fragmentation in the world. And so I would wager that this has been in the making for a decade

Kaye Foster:

Mm hmm. Agree.

Leigh Morgan:

a bit. Um, I think, due to some of the caustic nature of political discourse,

Kaye Foster:

Correct.

Leigh Morgan:

and I wonder what you see as some of the main challenges. leaders are facing today that are different than 10 years ago? Because we're just in a different meta environment. What are, what are some of the themes

Kaye Foster:

so it's interesting, because I'm not sure that they are different. I think a couple of things. I think they are more intense. I think there is less tolerance for ambiguity and uncertainty at a point in time where, I mean, if you plotted two curves, right, the ambiguity and uncertainty curve has increased, but our tolerance for those things has decreased. Right. So as a leader, there's this sense of being overwhelmed because you have all these digital distractions, not just on you, but just your workforce. you have a workforce that is itself experiencing all kinds of disruptions. We have a phrase with one of my clients, it's always on transformations. old days, there used to be a transformation, a reset, and you go about business as usual. Now it's just continuous. So I think as a leader, it is the confluence of all of those things that Uh, you know, and leaders say to me they feel an increasing loss of control, that allows me to go down the path of the illusion of control with them because I say to them control is an illusion.

Leigh Morgan:

Hmm.

Kaye Foster:

think that it isn't that, yes, there are more geopolitical, more economic challenges. But I do think it is that it's all speeded up. There is more intensity and it's more contracted. I think that's what we're dealing with. Right. I mean, I give the example of, I mentioned before, I was at J and J if you go back to, I mean, the Tylenol case was always heralded as this extraordinary example of. Governance of managing safety issues, etc. remind people the context in which that happened was there was no internet. CEO at the time brought his leadership team together, had a conversation about it. Spent 24 hours getting the right, always guided by the credo,

Leigh Morgan:

Of Johnson and Johnson. Yeah.

Kaye Foster:

you go,

Leigh Morgan:

Yeah.

Kaye Foster:

time to be thoughtful, right, to consider all of the stakeholders and still move with what was considered a sense of urgency.

Leigh Morgan:

And now we have milliseconds with social media. Why haven't they decided what's happening? And then I think in this, very fast, rapid speed of communication world that we're in, uh, conspiracy theories.

Kaye Foster:

Yes.

Leigh Morgan:

find very fertile ground.

Kaye Foster:

Absolutely.

Leigh Morgan:

And on the one hand, it makes sense because if I'm trying to make sense of a really nutty world, The antidote to uncertainty is certainty,

Kaye Foster:

Yes.

Leigh Morgan:

And so platitudes about what's happening or people who sound authoritative saying, well, this is what's happening. There's just a natural openness. I think to that We've, we've tipped over a bit and I think this happens on, uh, both sides of the political aisle, if, if you will, then there's an embellishment, an amplification, and particularly in election cycles of people trying to, trying to use, you know, storytelling to appeal to fear. And then it's, it's a really good strategy that if you want someone to feel fear, you're going to talk to them about their neighbors who are scary rapists.

Kaye Foster:

Correct.

Leigh Morgan:

who eat animals, right? it just feels like, unfortunately, we're in that time, and so, leaders have to deal with this speed. I think that's what you're saying.

Kaye Foster:

Yeah. And I think the other thing that is so interesting is I often ask leaders in the midst of all of this, what do you believe? are your core beliefs? Right? Because again, another question that for some reason people don't ask them and you know, I'll give you an example. Um, I was working with a leader and I asked him that question and he said, well, what do you mean? And I said, let me give you an example.

Leigh Morgan:

That's right.

Kaye Foster:

my core belief is that. Every single individual that I work with has some form of genius, not that they're a genius, but they have some form of genius and therefore, as a leader, my job is to create a context in which that genius can manifest on behalf of the higher purpose. therefore, my behavior, again, back to leadership behaviors, are guided by that belief. Right. So I know that if there is someone in my organization is earlier in career and their genius is just starting to emerge, I may have to spend more time coaching, engaging, really guiding that individual and helping that individual get to a place of self agency. You may be at a different stage of your career so and helping your genius manifest may require a different set of leadership behaviors. So, that's what I also think back to your question about what leaders are changing. It is not clear what they believe.

Leigh Morgan:

Mm. Mm.

Kaye Foster:

what is it that you believe, and how is, how are those beliefs. Guiding your behaviors, guiding your decision making, and that's the work. That's the hard work of leadership.

Leigh Morgan:

Yeah.

Kaye Foster:

so often on the transactional of leadership, which is what's the right structure. How do we assess talent? And I'm not suggesting that those things aren't important, but I'm suggesting that we back to pause

Leigh Morgan:

Yes.

Kaye Foster:

space. Can we get back to this? What is the core belief you have about leadership? It's kind of like, um, friend or all friends on servant leadership.

Leigh Morgan:

Yes.

Kaye Foster:

believe, right, and this is also part of my faith tradition. Jesus was the ultimate servant leader. if you believe that part of the most important thing you do is to put yourself in service to others, then that's a very different kind of engagement, right? Than if you believe that people exist to serve you.

Leigh Morgan:

Yes. It's a, you get very divergent behaviors. And very divergent visions for what excellence is, which goes back to your earlier

Kaye Foster:

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan:

about your father, right? Around the excellence, the sense of that, that was a very strong imprinting. And I, I think it is very powerful because, you know, I've had times in my career where I have made time to pause and get clear about my beliefs. And there were times when I didn't do that and my effectiveness as a leader, uh, I think it's suffered a bit but guess what? Those times have made me a better person, better leader. So I, I'm, I'm grateful for every experience that I've had, but I think there's a little bit of that story for everyone. And what you're encouraging us is that we can create times of pause, ultimately helps us ground in our inner belief system. And that is a place of stability. and stability in today's crazy nutty time,

Kaye Foster:

Yes,

Leigh Morgan:

that's, I think that's gold. I really.

Kaye Foster:

completely

Leigh Morgan:

gold.

Kaye Foster:

So remember I said to you. You know, leadership for me is a spiritual practice and that informs the values that I that I operate from compassion, right, you know, it informs empathy, it informs the behaviors that come from that are really Why do I ask a leader? How are you doing? It's because I'm coming from a place of meeting you, where I know you are, but where I want you to recognize where you are. Because to me, at the end of the day, Lee, What I do in organizations with leaders is about increasing capacity. I want to increase your capacity as a leader. And so often in leadership theory, we focus on capability. And I get it, right? Capability is your skills. It's your experience. It's your expertise. It's easy to measure that. But what I really want to focus on is how can I increase your capacity, right? Your capacity to lead. which you need to find space to increase your capacity. Right. And that's really, that's the trick that I've been up to.

Leigh Morgan:

I like I like that.

Kaye Foster:

about capacity building.

Leigh Morgan:

I like that distinction. It's it's important. And this notion of the space in between you know it is really about creating pause, creating pause between people who might be on a different side of an issue. And so I'm curious if About how you're experiencing young people doing this and for listeners, uh, to know that K is on the board of Spelman college, one of the country's elite universities based in Atlanta. Um, it's an, an incredible place of, of, uh, young women who are, uh, showing up trying to change the world. What's the tone and tenor on that campus? And how are, how are students navigating both the turmoil, but also how are they finding ways to come together across dimensions of difference? Because I do not assume that all the students have the same views politically.

Kaye Foster:

Not at all. Not at all. And it's a, it's a great question. And here's a place where context really matters because. College was founded in 1881. It is one of the country's oldest historically black colleges and universities, and it was founded to educate black women at a point in time where think about 1881 and Sophie Packard, two white women actually. Founded in a church basement, this school and what's really interesting is so, so there, there are two anchors. One is it's in Atlanta. It is in the midst of where the birth of the civil rights movement emerged. then the second is this deep faith tradition. Of those two things is something back to foundation, I think it's really important when you are exactly, as you said, or young women come across the entirety of the spectrum. economic, socioeconomic, political, they really do across the entire diaspora. So what we have worked really hard to ensure is that there is a strong foundation that is shared by all. And that foundation informs How do you actually engage in discourse and dialogue when you are on the opposite side of an issue?

Leigh Morgan:

Hmm.

Kaye Foster:

it's not that we don't allow it to happen. We actually encourage it because you remember, it's what you said. Our motto is a choice to change the world. That's what we want women to do, to make that choice, to change the world. You cannot make a choice to change the world. If you are, if you're thinking is homogeneous, monolithic, and the only voice that you are hearing is your own. we recognize that in order to have these women who are making a choice to change the world, they have to stand on a foundation that is rooted in understanding the history, in understanding the cultural dimensions that they're working in. But more importantly, that have the skill We focus on. I think part of what we also see at a macro level is we haven't invested in building skill and expertise in individuals for how to have Discourse,

Leigh Morgan:

Yeah.

Kaye Foster:

have, how to deal with conflict. And it's funny because I remember Early in my career, one of my bosses suggested that I take, and it was some of the best advice I'd ever gotten, and I was a little, not offended, but I, I didn't know what the feedback meant, but that I take a course at Harvard that was focused on, uh, negotiations. And it is the, the person that taught that class is a world renowned both, not just professor, but he actually negotiated some of the most, quite frankly, contentious conflict situations in the world. He was one of the folks that worked on the FARC, uh, negotiations in Columbia.

Leigh Morgan:

Wow. Yeah.

Kaye Foster:

what I appreciated about him, once I got to the class and got over my boss, perhaps giving me feedback, I couldn't understand.

Leigh Morgan:

I've had that moment too.

Kaye Foster:

Yeah, you, you know, we have those moments

Leigh Morgan:

Yes.

Kaye Foster:

somebody suggests you take something and you think, okay,

Leigh Morgan:

Do I have a big deficit here?

Kaye Foster:

yes, yes, yes, but back to the point of skill, how do we really. Um, and how do we instill these women with the And expertise. And actually, um, we have a long history of debate and debate, excellence, we don't talk about debate, we talk about debate, excellence, and we actually see it almost as a prerequisite, because when you are going to tackle some of these most challenging issues, you have to have. We'll, we'll, you know, we'll invest you

Leigh Morgan:

Mm.

Kaye Foster:

presence, you'll be articulate with your vocabulary, but for us, it's about the skill. How do you see all the sides, all the potential sides of an issue? How do you meet the other person where they are? And it isn't that your job, unless you are in debate, is to actually move them over to the other side. But in order to move them over to the other side, you have to understand what that side is.

Leigh Morgan:

I think that's the hard part these days is some of the polarization and I would say this word othering,

Kaye Foster:

Yes.

Leigh Morgan:

pointing. I think the tone and tenor, particularly, at a federal level has gotten so caustic.

Kaye Foster:

Yes.

Leigh Morgan:

calling and I think it goes both ways, although I. I would say the current administration is, you know,

Kaye Foster:

perfected it

Leigh Morgan:

has perfected the notion of name calling and, you know, they put out cartoons about people, et cetera. And, you know, I don't think that

Kaye Foster:

diminishment. Remember,

Leigh Morgan:

that's right.

Kaye Foster:

The intent is to diminish

Leigh Morgan:

Yeah.

Kaye Foster:

in the eyes of others. So it reduces your credibility. It literally, to your point, it others you to the extent where it's easy to move past you.

Leigh Morgan:

It's easy to move past you. And, you know, you talk about Spelman being in Atlanta and one of, uh, podcasts I did was with Dr. Danny Fallon, who's the Dean of the. Emory School

Kaye Foster:

Yes.

Leigh Morgan:

Public Health. And she's doing at that school, much as you all are doing at Spelman, which is training and hosting forums where students can come together to have conversations. And I'm reminded of all the merger and acquisition work that I've done. And I, you have as well. And in a lot of these, uh, MNA environments, one of the things that I noticed was three patterns. Of reaction. One was, uh, this fight or flight.

Kaye Foster:

Mm

Leigh Morgan:

So something's happening where merge and my division or team is getting turned upside down. Right.

Kaye Foster:

hm,

Leigh Morgan:

And so I'm either going to fight that, you know, resist or else this notion of flight, which is kind of go away, put your head down and people literally get real quiet. So there's folks who are resisting and then folks get real quiet. And then there's a smaller subset of folks who step forward. And not always perfect, but just step forward into the change.

Kaye Foster:

Yes!

Leigh Morgan:

experience is those are the folks that I want to follow,

Kaye Foster:

Mm hm,

Leigh Morgan:

right? Those are the folks I want to emulate as a leader in my own style.

Kaye Foster:

mm

Leigh Morgan:

And I think what you're doing is calling the students at Spelman and what Dr. Fallon's doing to step forward.

Kaye Foster:

Yes!

Leigh Morgan:

To just step forward into that. Sometimes scary place where you might be other or you think the other person holds views that might not value you and your identity. And I think that's also a place of pause.

Kaye Foster:

Agreed completely, completely agreed. I think for them, your point about stepping forward into a place that might feel uncomfortable or might, you know, it might be a place that. On the surface can appear fearful. That's why we know that the foundation is so important. And what do I mean by the foundation, not just this history of civil rights movement so that they understand the context that has evolved over time. They understand the deep rooted faith and the skills that we give them, but we also have a set of what we call rituals. Right. Which is, and the very notion that you are joining is sisterhood. So you aren't doing these things on your own. It's back to connection and community. You aren't doing these things on your own. You actually are a part of a sisterhood that has been around for almost years. joining a sisterhood that has. Hundreds of thousands of sisters all over the world. So there is this sense of connectivity and connective tissue, and the rituals are to reinforce whether it is, we actually have them walk through an arch, and the arch is actually an arch of people. It's kinda like what you see when people in the military get married. They walk through the arch of swords.

Leigh Morgan:

Yeah.

Kaye Foster:

through the arch of hands,

Leigh Morgan:

Oh, beautiful.

Kaye Foster:

the symbolism, right,

Leigh Morgan:

Yeah,

Kaye Foster:

we have a number of things like that because

Leigh Morgan:

beautiful. Yes.

Kaye Foster:

is this foundation of faith. It's imbuing you with the skills and expertise, but it's also you are part of a collective, because one of the things you and I haven't talked about is how we have really shifted over time from a collectivist kind of orientation to a much more individualistic or probably, I would argue, sometimes I think back to, when the West was one kind of the, You know, the Ronald Reagan kind of, you know, man on a horse conquering the West by himself and his gun, right? I don't mean that disparagingly. I'm just putting it as a metaphor. this collectivist, this notion that you are part of something bigger than just yourself and your echo chamber, I think it's a little lost on us. So it's the reason we try to do those things with our

Leigh Morgan:

Mm. I think that's really powerful. The power of ritual, the power of making a little pause and I say a little because even five minutes a day of journaling, I had a Maymay Fox who's a credible storyteller. She talks, you know, there's neuroscience research that shows just five minutes a day of doing some journaling actually creates new neurons.

Kaye Foster:

Absolutely. You can

Leigh Morgan:

and

Kaye Foster:

your brain actually through activity like that.

Leigh Morgan:

it's amazing. And I think, wow, if the world is more turbulent today, it's fast. Things are changing in ways that we, couldn't imagine. I mean, the U. S. is affiliating with Russia now. I mean, it's really amazing.

Kaye Foster:

it is

Leigh Morgan:

it's, it's a little head spinning. And so amidst that, the places that we can find connection, and you just spoke to the power of the collective. And that we don't have to do this alone. And that's partly, my hopes for this podcast, right, to elevate and through our connection right now and, if any ways that this can touch other people, I mean, that's, really what we're all trying to do. And one last question, Kay, before we end today. If you had a magic wand, and that was an all powerful magic wand, you know, Gandalf staff, if you will,

Kaye Foster:

yes,

Leigh Morgan:

um, and you had one wish for listeners, what would that one wish be for listeners who, are working hard to create connection amidst divide, connection amidst the fragmented world that we find ourselves?

Kaye Foster:

Yeah, it's it's interesting. I have a good friend, and she decided that she was going to do a cross country diner tour. And remember your point about. common spaces. She decided that the common spaces was not a mobile platform. And she mapped out this journey where she would go into diners and just talk to folks. And using the same set of practices, we've talked about compassion, meeting people where they are listening to learn, not listening to validate, not listening to confirm my biases, but listening to learn, being willing to be uncomfortable. So sit in that discomfort. Right? So actively practicing this kind of listening tour. And she said, okay, it has. It's changed her. It absolutely has changed her she is much, obviously she, she has more skill. In engaging with dialogue, she is able to navigate better. She believes all of the distractions, but here's what I pointed out to her, and it's for your listeners as well. one of those interactions, the other individual is changed. Because so often we think about ourselves and for a long time, I never understood that until now I hear from people like 20 years ago, who say, you were the senior executive, I was early in career, I asked for, you know, 15 minutes on your calendar, you gave me an hour and it changed my life. And I'm thinking,

Leigh Morgan:

Wow,

Kaye Foster:

And sometimes don't. I think we don't honor the mutuality. It's like this engagement with you. I have gotten so much out of this hour with you and I encourage your listeners to stay in the dialogue because we will change each other. I think that's the only way we're going to get out of this. It's not by. It's not by staying divided, it's the willingness to take the first step.

Leigh Morgan:

that is powerful and let's all step forward

Kaye Foster:

Yes.

Leigh Morgan:

and do so with support and also self awareness of not every day can we step forward and that's fine. So it's that

Kaye Foster:

Yeah,

Leigh Morgan:

self awareness of when we're able to be able to hold those qualities that you just. You just described. So, I really like your magic wand and I, you've had a magic one in a, in a Gandalf staff for a long time. You are one of those wise leaders and thank you for living a life of high integrity. informed by your faith which is very expansive. It's a, it's a big temp for everyone to find themselves. So Kay, it's been an honor and thank you for your inspiring words today.

Kaye Foster:

A privilege, my friend, a true privilege and thank you for doing this.

Leigh Morgan:

Wonderful. Thanks Kay.

Kaye Foster:

Take good care.

I hope you. Enjoyed this episode of the space in between podcast. If. If you did, please hit the like button and leave a review. Wherever you listen to the show. And check out the space. Space in between.com website, where you can also leave me a message.

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Lakshmi Nidamarthi

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Leigh Morgan

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The Honorable Satana Deberry

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