Women's Sports Are Having a Moment - With Dawn Trudeau, Co-Owner of the Seattle Storm

In this episode of The Space In Between, I sat down with Dawn Trudeau—trailblazing civic leader, early Microsoft executive, and one of the majority owners of the WNBA’s Seattle Storm. We explored why women’s sports are having a cultural moment, how the Storm has built a franchise rooted in values and community, and what it takes to lead with conviction while bridging divides. From growing up in conservative Iowa to shaping tech and sports history, Dawn offers deeply personal lessons on believing in yourself, finding courage when the road ahead is unclear, and how she and her partners have built one of the WNBA's most successful franchises. Together, we unpack how the power women’s sports can bring people together during times of uncertainty and polarization.

Transcript

0:01

Hello and welcome to the. Space in between podcast. I'm your host Lee Morgan. Again, this podcast is for listeners who are fed up. Up with the hyperpolarized nature of the world today. And who crave. Craves spaces where current events can be discussed in construct. enlightening and delightful ways. Let's get.

Leigh Morgan: 0:29

As some of you know, back in the day, I was the starting point guard for. Duke University's women's basketball team. I love basketball then, and I love it just as much. Now I'm especially fond of my hometown, WNBA team. The Seattle Storm I'm also a fan of the WNBA itself, which has grown into one of the most popular professional sports leagues in the us. For those of us who follow the teams, this is no surprise. The league features some incredible players while also showcasing good old fashioned teamwork. It's an exciting time for women's sports overall, and I would dare say that women's sports are having a moment. And today we will explore why we are seeing such a surge in interest and support, and how the Seattle storm and other women's teams are helping to bring people together amidst uncertain and often polarizing times. What is it about women's sports that bridges divides? And what lessons can we learn about how to strengthen connection across all communities? Today my guests will share a lot of insights on these topics. I'm very pleased to welcome Dawn Trudeau to the show. Dawn is one of the storm's, three majority owners, and who, along with her partners, bought the franchise in 2008. Since then, Dawn and her colleagues have built the organization into one of the most valuable WNBA teams out there. And did I mention that they have won four championship titles? Dawn is a trailblazer in many ways starting her career at Microsoft In the mid eighties, she also served as general manager during that scaling time when very few women held technical or leadership roles in technology. And she is one of Seattle's most respected civic leaders known for her policy work on tax reform, promoting equity and economic development. She knows a thing or two about scaling successful businesses, and she'll share insights on how we can continue to elevate women's sports, bring people together, stay rooted in our values, and also find ways to bridge differences that keep us apart. Dawn, I'm thrilled to have you as a guest on the show. Welcome to the Space in between.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 2:57

Thank you. I'm really happy. To be here.

Leigh Morgan: 3:00

I'm glad that you're here as well. So I mentioned you're a trailblazer and you have a unique mix of being able to see around corners, what Microsoft could be, and then look at it now, and you and your co-owners saw that with the WNBA and the local franchise, but you also have a track record of scaling your vision, operationalizing it. And I wonder where does this entrepreneurial passion to start things plus your ability to turn big ideas into reality, come from.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 3:34

I think it really starts with believing in yourself, believing that you have the capability to do things always invested in things that I really liked because I figure, you know, if I like it, then other people will like it too., I was an early investor in Starbucks because I thought, this is just great to go, out and have a cup of coffee with people and, and share that. that was another area where I just, it I did, I'm not personally involved in the company, but I just thought this is something that I think is really neat. And so if I do, probably others will too. And I think that's part of the believing in yourself your feelings and your, are in common with other people. think also the, the being able to scale is, just not being afraid, saying to yourself, if I don't know something, I can figure it out. Having that kind of confidence in yourself that you can, that you can figure it out. And always believing in investing in, the organizations that you're part of, the businesses that you're part of, that, small dreams won't build big things. So when you have the opportunity to invest, when you have capital, you wanna put it back into the businesses that you're part of, back into the organizations to allow them to scale. it's a sense of abundance, not a sense of scarcity, basically, I.

Leigh Morgan: 4:43

I love what you said. Small dreams won't build big dreams. I mean, you have to dream big in order to scale big, but then you have to do this one step at a time, which is the actual scaling process. Did I get that right?

Dawn Trudeau-2: 4:57

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Leigh Morgan: 4:59

That's well said. So this passion and not being afraid. And was there something in your family culture or as a youngster growing up that helped you have that ve of not being scared and then also really being able to recognize where your lie.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 5:16

yes, but in a kind of a way that you wouldn't maybe expect. I grew up in a very conservative family. Very, male dominated family. And I grew up in Iowa, so the culture in Iowa is pretty, male dominated as well. And the more I the world, the less sense that made to me. So I decided early on that I had to get out of Iowa. And that was my first investment in entrepreneurship is to say I'm not gonna follow the, the path that I've seen before me. Most of the women in my family were teachers. I have a utmost respect for, but that's not what I wanted to do with myself. So I left home when I was 18, with$200, and two suitcases and moved to Michigan. I had gone to a youth seminar in Ann Arbor and I decided that that was where I wanted to go to school. But I couldn't afford outta state tuition, so I moved there and said, okay, I'll work for a year and then I'll be a resident and then I can go to University of Michigan. And it was right when computers were starting to, become used in businesses. most businesses couldn't afford a computer themselves, but they were doing dial up into mainframes. And so I went to work on an assembly line for a company. And, they decided that they were going to start to try to automate the manufacturing process and, people really didn't have degrees. In computer science. At that time, it was a very, very new, field because computers were just becoming available to people besides NASA and, when the business decided they wanted to start automating manufacturing, I said, I can figure that out. so started my career in, computer software basically by helping build, the bills of material for this organization and then putting them on a computer. that's part of what I meant about believing in yourself, that if I don't know something, I can figure it out. I can teach myself. And I think that's a huge part of being an entrepreneur, is that. know, you're gonna run into unknowns. That's always gonna be the case because you can't know everything in the future, but you have to have that, that core confidence that you know, you'll figure it out.

Leigh Morgan: 7:14

It's an inspiring story and you know, Iowans are many farmers, right? I mean, it's be a harsh climate in the.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 7:22

in the summer.

Leigh Morgan: 7:22

So end of summer. And so there's probably a little bit of that. We gotta. Deal with this ourselves. And I'm struck by the confidence that you had to, leave something shut a door, and moving forward. Sometimes it's closing of doors, shutting things that you don't know what you're really going to, that opens new doors. from there then you went to Microsoft early during Microsoft, right? And. Just helped it light on fire around the products and the way that it was embedded in operating systems, and you helped grow that business. That's

Dawn Trudeau-2: 7:52

was a few stops in between, To gimme the skills that I needed to get hired at Microsoft. But, but yeah, I went to Microsoft in 1984, so before it was a public company there, it was the prior year I think they'd had about$30 million in revenue and there was about 300 employees at the time. So it

Leigh Morgan: 8:07

Wow.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 8:08

early. And I started in the IT group because that's what I knew. I knew how to put in computer systems for businesses. And then, about three years into it, I knew that I had kind of hit the top of the ladder there and that I wanted to move into the product division. So I, um, ended up,,, getting a job on Windows Excel before, before any Windows apps shipped. I was one of the first, associate product managers at Microsoft. And again, it was something that I knew I could teach myself how to, Do this job. And through that process it really helped me, understand. How computers could really change the world. computer on every desk and in every home was the motto at Microsoft at the time. And that was unheard of, you know, people couldn't afford it. But this was, this was something where, it was really And, the fact that. PCs were becoming available to normal people to be able to use. And so, the job there was really convincing people that Windows applications were a very different thing. The graphical user interface was a very different thing than how people had been using PCs to that point. And I started a group called Seminars and Direct Marketing to really teach people what the Windows apps were, why they were so different. So we did, seminars all around the country for free. Demonstrating the products and, having it be a, a learning session, not just a sales session. They wildly, popular and it really helped propel Windows applications to go forward. And the, the bottom line there was just that it was,, if you don't understand something, you don't understand what the value can be to you. So

Leigh Morgan: 9:33

consumer's not gonna pay for something they don't understand, or most, most of us won't. So, so, get out there.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 9:38

there was to show the value.

Leigh Morgan: 9:40

Yeah, well talk about value. if we can, pivot to women's sports and women's basketball because I really believe we're in this amazing time and you're at the epicenter of it. You and many others have been pioneers wayfinders, path makers for the rest of us to be inspired by women's athletics and. I wonder, what do you make of this incredible surge in interest And I think that's true in women's sports in general. I'm sure there's some outliers and we see that in the US and around the globe. I mean, I remember the good old days when it was hard to get more than 10 students to watch the Duke Women's. Team, and we were always a top 20 team. So it felt to me like a couple of decades of pretty slow, steady increase in enthusiasm and exposure over time. And then the last few years, boom, just the big spike. Is my sense accurate and and why do you think there's so much enthusiasm now?

Dawn Trudeau-2: 10:51

I think you, you are accurate. Um, we bought the team in 2008. We had the benefit of a loyal fan base when we bought the team, which was great, but it was pretty steady in terms of growth. It wasn't like, you know, a, stick kind of growth at all. It was pretty slow and steady. And I think what happened it during the COVID years was really, transformational for, the league because you know, everybody was shut at home. There wasn't a lot to watch. A hundred percent of the games were broadcast. we played in what we affectionately call the wubble in Florida. So the A bubble, the Wubble. Yeah. Um, and so there was, a location where all the players went, as well as the coaches, the referees and, any media people. And they were basically. On lockdown, not basically they were on lockdown. And so, what happened there is that not only was there visibility because there wasn't as much competition for, sports. But also what happened was, is that the players. I never been in a situation where the whole league was together all the time. Usually you're traveling from one city to another, so you have 12 players, 24 players, That might go out to dinner afterwards and then you're onto the next thing. Well, they were all in the same place at the same time for. Three months. This was at a time when, it was 2020, when George Floyd was, murdered in Minneapolis. And the league is roughly 80%, women of color, black women. And so they are used to, wanting to defend their families and defend their, community. And so they started talking about what they could do to use. This platform that we had, and they decided to honor a woman named Bri Breonna Taylor, who had been, shot by police when she was in her own home, in her own bed. they wanted to devote the season to saying her name. Because oftentimes, even with, with George Floyd, there was so much publicity, but black women weren't getting that same kind of, Awareness of what was happening to them as well. And so by the fact that they were able to have this, collective mind working on this problem in our wubble, well also at the same time. Black Lives Matter was something that the players said that in order to do this wubble season, we had to address that as a league. owner of the Atlanta team, Kelly Loeffler, strongly to that and, basically she said a lot of bad things, but basically she strongly, strongly objected to it. Now the players are sitting there together talking to each other, and, Kelly had been appointed a temporary senate seat, and she had to run for reelection that fall. So the players decided what they were gonna do is to work together, use their collective, impact to elect somebody that was an alternative to Kelly Loeffler.

Leigh Morgan: 13:29

I can't remember that.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 13:30

did their research and they figured that, they decided that Ralph Warnick

Leigh Morgan: 13:35

Okay.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 13:35

the exactly the right kind of person that they wanted to have in, in office. although he was a minister. he also really believed in civil rights and women's rights, and so they decided that they were gonna do everything they could to help him get elected and Unelect Kelly Loeffler. So they made t-shirts that they wore, elect warnock. They, basically used, 144 players, minds, energies and resources to try to change the trajectory of the Senate. And sure enough. got elected and the Senate flipped from Republican to Democratic. And so that also I think brought, brought great visibility to it.'cause it was, it was basketball. Yes. But it was also just the, notion that these are powerful people, that when they put their minds together, they can actually accomplish significant change. And I think that brought a different kind of awareness to the.

Leigh Morgan: 14:24

Ah, so I'm struck by a few things of how in the wubble. New word. I love that word. The players came together as a community in a new way

Dawn Trudeau-2: 14:37

They, they never had that opportunity before,

Leigh Morgan: 14:39

because they're all stuck in this place and it's a, you know, so no one gets COVID. All the kind of things that that happen. And one outcome was a shared sense of purpose

Dawn Trudeau-2: 14:50

Yes.

Leigh Morgan: 14:51

A societal issue, a reality that was greater than the game, greater than them as individuals.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 14:58

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan: 14:59

that with the majority of the players being African American, these were their sisters and they probably heard their stories in a way. I mean, I played and you, you, when you're in a team setting, you really increase your awareness of dynamics in society. I mean, that's a beautiful thing. you described them as this powerful voice, a collective voice.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 15:18

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan: 15:18

I remember they did get a lot of press for standing up and saying, it's not okay that one of the owners is doing this, especially in Atlanta. You know, there's a lot of controversy. She, hasn't always been seen as the kind of caustic, Polarizing figure. She actually used to be seen as a moderate voice. And then amazing what happens when you decide to run for office.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 15:40

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan: 15:41

Um,

Dawn Trudeau-2: 15:41

power?

Leigh Morgan: 15:42

you wanna keep your power. So you all have three strong women and now a bigger, bigger community as co-owners of the storm and then the team itself. What are some of the ways in the Seattle storm, you all have tried to lead and build a unique franchise here that taps into that sense of community?

Dawn Trudeau-2: 16:02

We've always had a sense of community in that. We felt like we were stewards of this community resource, this community asset, but again, with the George Floyd murder, we decided that we had to be more overt about what we were doing. And so we created a pillar that we called Force for Change, which was really about, amplifying black women, support of lgbtq plus communities, support of bipo communities. And then because of the National climate, we added voting education and legislation to it. we, hired a, an ex-player, actually Crystal Langhorn, to run that, platform for us. And so we've been investing in those areas since 2020, very explicitly before it was, would say more opportunistic. Like if we saw something, we would do it, but it wasn't like this conscious effort where we actually hired somebody to do this work for us to make sure that wasn't, uh, dalliance for us, it was a core belief in who we wanted to be as an organization and who,

Leigh Morgan: 16:57

I.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 16:58

we wanted to support our communities. And so since 2020, we've raised over a million and a half dollars to reinvest back into the, Puget Sound. We try to stay local because we think that's, who we are, we're based here. And so we want to invest here. We've done some things, that are more national. Uh, common power is a nonpartisan voter, organizing organization that works around the country. And we, we put some money into them too, but mostly we wanna stay local as we can. that is something that we have not. Wavered from once we started it that this was something that we could use our relationships with our corporate partners to help them amplify what we were doing. And so that's been a great relationship for us. And also they have found that it really helps support their businesses because we're aligned in values. Another thing that we do is called Storm Academy, and it's free to, we typically focus on middle school. It's not a hundred percent middle school, girls, but it's mostly that. And so we work with our corporate partners to help them get, an idea about their own agency and their own ability to be leaders. and also some career, some opportunities for career. So like one partner that we have is Delta Dental. And so they come in and they'll do an academy on what it's like to be a dental assistant and, Um, of America was another one where we talked about financial literacy. I So we work with our corporate partners to help our community, but also help them deliver on their missions with aligned values. That's a part of our belief in community too, is that when you're aligned in values, it's very easy to find ways of enriching your local community.

Leigh Morgan: 18:33

that's really powerful. And I, should say Microsoft is so well regarded. Globally also here in the community, so that legacy lives on there as well. I'm sure you are a part of that. And have you seen any retrenchment at all since the new regime and in DC where there's been backlash in some spaces around diversity, equity, and inclusion?

Dawn Trudeau-2: 18:59

I think you certainly see that in some corporations. Some of the larger corporations for sure. I. We are fortunate in that we are privately owned, and so, you know, we don't have shareholder pressure. Even the new investors that we brought in, we, were very explicit about finding ones that were aligned in values as well, so that they understood how we were gonna operate and that they wanted to support that versus, us having to, to convince them that this was something good to do. but I definitely have seen pullback and I think it's, understandable. when the government can target specific individuals, businesses, educational organizations, because they aren't aligned with the explicit values that they're espousing, then I think it's very natural to try to get your head below the foxhole. And I think a lot of companies are doing that because this. Harmful to them, and that's what they need to do. There's some exceptions to that as well. You know, you've seen when legal firms were targeted, there were some legal firms that said, no, we're not gonna do that. When Costco was, taken to task for their, efforts for diversity, equity, and inclusion, they said, no, that's a core part of who we are and we're not gonna change that either. So there's definitely been some exceptions to it, but there's also been some, that have decided they needed to pull back.

Leigh Morgan: 20:09

I do wanna just give some grace to all leaders who, who walk up to these really hard, nuanced issues of, you know, take a stand. And it might mean that I have to lay off employees.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 20:22

Right.

Leigh Morgan: 20:23

That's hard. I mean, look in the mirror and say, what do you wanna do? this battle now or live for another day, or you all are privately owned, you have strong investor support, and so you are able, To take the kind of enduring stands, I will say, to pull forward that what you've already been doing. So thanks for. Lifting that up and the grace that, that you have shared, it's, a tough thing to navigate for, any, leader that's honest, we'll say, this is nuanced thing. And this notion of rooted in place, I mean, we have franchises rooted in place. I've been struck by the storm. Elevating these principles around LGBT, voting rights, elevating African American community, people of color, you've really baked that into the DNA of your operations. Has any other WNBA franchise done something similar?

Dawn Trudeau-2: 21:19

Not to the extent that we have. No. It's, a core principle of ours and, when we bought the team, said, we're the nexus of business, sports, and social impact. And so it's always been in our mind that part of the stewardship of this franchise is making sure that we're, Considering our social impact along with our record, you know, on the, court. So that I think because it's so core to us, is. Why we've invested more than most other teams have. Some teams did, uh, round, 2020, but then they kind of pulled back and we've actually leaned in more. We're, now hiring another executive position to really shepherd this through, all, all aspects of our organization. So, I think we are, I can say honestly that we are a leader in this.

Leigh Morgan: 22:05

Well thanks for that. And Seattle's known for innovation and leadership, so being consistent there. I know Lisa's also from Microsoft and Ginny is a trailblazer and as an athlete in these are the other two majority owners of the team. I'd like to think a little bit about cultural narratives.'cause you talked about the principles and the kind of three values that informed. How you thought about the business. Women's sports are a big deal now, and we're seeing T-shirts out there and it's neat. And so in a way, when something gets popular, it influences cultural narratives of how we talk about ourselves. And you describe kind of this caustic tone and tenor. From the federal government now, or at least from the administration of if you, if you've used these words, we're gonna come after you. That's an example of a cultural narrative. In what ways are women's sports influencing a more positive cultural narrative and helping us bridge devise how do you see that working?

Dawn Trudeau-2: 23:09

I think women's sports is unique in that we've always had to fight for our, rights. We've always had to fight for our justice because women have not always had that. And it's a part of just the whole ecosystem of women's sports different than men's sports. So then you use that, commitment you make it so that people that are in your arena or people that are following your, your team feel like they're part of it too. That they are included in your desire to improve society and to improve, the position and,, compensation of women. So I think Not, not a hundred percent, but you can certainly deflect some of that caustic nature by positivity, by, looking for what's possible versus what's not possible, and really focusing on what we do have in common versus what we don't have in common.

Leigh Morgan: 23:59

I'm struck by what you said of focusing on what's possible because I remember when, you know the, the women's soccer team won the World Cup. so many great players on that, team. And all of a sudden it was the world's biggest event, right? And we had the ticker tape parade and these individual players becoming iconic and many different moments like that. And Kaitlyn Clark, she got so much press and she's not the only great player out there. Right. But there's something about her game and maybe being from a less well-known school, but whatever those dynamics, just

Dawn Trudeau-2: 24:32

she also broke the all time scoring record for male, male, or female, in ncaa. So that, yeah,

Leigh Morgan: 24:39

a small thing.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 24:40

it's a small thing. So I mean, she's deservedly gotten her, because she did something extraordinary.

Leigh Morgan: 24:46

Yeah, I, I love that for her and the fan base and, you know, um, this is in the Midwest, you know, at her school, at a state school, and they would sell out and not far from where she went to school. University of Nebraska women's volleyball team was a tournament where 70,000 fans came to the stadium. To see the women's volleyball. So I don't think people really understand that. Women's sports at the college level and professional level are really touching a lot of hearts and minds.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 25:20

Yes, I think so too. Yeah, I mean, that one was, that was phenomenal. Just, it just makes me happy just to know that that many people showed up for, for volleyball, which wasn't a, professional league, but totally fun to watch women's sports.

Leigh Morgan: 25:35

you mentioned that 100% of the WNBA games During the COVID Wubble, I'm gonna say that five times fast. They were broadcast, and so now we're seeing a lot more money coming in to the WNBA and really glad that the players are being compensated at a greater level. I know from a business managing a p and l, it's tough, right? You're like, we would love to pay them lots more and we also have to make a profit. So owners and the., players union have navigated that. I think that's positive. Are there any negative sides to the fact there's a lot more money, a lot more attention, and any concerns that you might have as we're seeing women's sports continue to grow in stature and influence.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 26:24

Yes. Unfortunately with also comes, detractors. And when I say detractors, I don't mean that they're so much complaining about the quality of the sport.'cause that's always been a, you know, sort of a. Thing, but more than anything, they're starting to target individual players and, especially with Kaitlyn Clark being the prominent person, that she is a white woman. The real targeting is going towards black players in the league. if she gets her hard foul, then there's death threats to some of the players. I mean, it's that level of vitriolic. Trolling. And so that part of it is unfortunate because that wears on your psyche. That really wears on your, I mean, we've, all the teams now started traveling, um, security with the teams where we never used to have to do that, but now we do because we feel it's, you never know what somebody might do, some unhinged person might do. So there is that, and it has come with the visibility. It's just that people feel more, allowed to just. Kind of be nasty people. and Even in the games, not even on online, in the game, sometimes there's racial, racial comments made and things like that, that, that are, totally unacceptable. But sometimes people feel like that's, they get to do that.

Leigh Morgan: 27:39

to what extent do you see that as a. Unfortunate and predictable consequence of a bigger profile, as opposed to or supplemented by this, generally this caustic tone and tenor of public discourse. In general. And I will say, and on this podcast I've shared my own view that, the, the Trump phenomena has been a, leading kind of catalyst for the tone and tenor. And we see that also from the left. Okay. So there's no monopoly on blame and shame. And so I wanna say that, but how do you see this increased risk profile that you described? Relative to the general culture and just the fact that the WNBA is getting more popular.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 28:28

it's now. Okay. To spew hate. I mean, look at what just happened in, in Minnesota people in politics were murdered because of the politics that they have. And that was o it was considered okay. I mean, it is hard to that, caustic negative venomous behavior from the messages that are coming from the top It is connected, it's allowed, it's been unleashed because if that person can do it, then I can do it. And that's really a shame. It's really, really a shame. And to me it's a complete lack of leadership. Well, actually isn't it is leading. It's just leading in a, in a bad way.

Leigh Morgan: 29:08

Yeah. I just think we need more, more folks to step up and, model different behaviors, which is why on this podcast, I have strong convictions and views, many aligned to the work that you've done in community, for many years. And I am more convinced than ever that the way forward for all of us is to maintain our strong convictions and also. Find ways to listen to people who are different than us. And that's the only way to do both of those is the only way forward. It's the only way we can bridge divides because if we just stay, these are my convictions, only good change can happen. We might get some, policy, or we might get some protections, et cetera. So I don't wanna suggest that's bad and. But we also need to listen and bring people together because the world's way more polarized now than it was 12 months ago than it was 24 months ago. And it doesn't take everyone to do that, but more of us need to step forward and find ways to open that door. In similar ways that the Seattle Storm opened the door for fans from all walks of life. To come together, feel joy, feel excitement to watch an amazing game unfold. And I, I'm hopeful that the storm and other WNBA franchises will continue to get people excited. I think it's one way to find some relief amidst all of this chaos.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 30:46

I totally agree. I mean, that's one of the things that, is so great about, again, particularly women's sports, which is a broader tent than many other sports. Is that you get into that arena and you're all a family. You're all together I mean obviously there's some opposing fans there too, but rooting for if nothing else is the game overall, but also your team. And That's what I was saying about finding things that you can agree on, finding things that you, that you do have in common versus focusing on things that you don't have in common. And sports is a great example of that, right? We have in common, and we love this team. And we don't talk to each other about politics while we're watching the game. We we're, we're looking for points and defense and, and high fiving the person next to you, whether you know them or not. You know, I mean, that's, it's a very different kind of a feeling to be in, that kind of an arena and, know that you all have something in common here and we all have something we can agree on and we don't need to, for the things that we don't agree on. We can just on and take joy from the things that we have in common.

Leigh Morgan: 31:45

That notion of things in common, plus joy. And again, look, if the storm or having a bad game, they're not winning. Know that might not be the most joyful game to watch. At the same time, I think joy in finding spaces in our life, you know, we're recording this and the US has just entered this conflict in the Middle East. Right. And so God knows what that means for the tomorrow or the coming years. And I found myself yesterday just feeling a little, you know,

Dawn Trudeau-2: 32:17

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan: 32:18

some angst and some concern. The antidote to that is finding the joy, where we can, life is short, smile more. And so you just lifted that up. And

Dawn Trudeau-2: 32:29

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan: 32:29

I think, sports in general can do that. Women's sports right now is having a moment, can do that on Ster is doing that on steroids,

Dawn Trudeau-2: 32:37

I'll tell you where I, uh, got joy recently as well. I was, I participated in the march, on, June 14th, and that was the most amazing thing. It was in downtown Seattle, so the guesstimate is between 70 and a hundred thousand people.

Leigh Morgan: 32:50

It's amazing.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 32:50

participated in the Women's March. A few years ago too, and I, think they said that this was the second largest, protest march, aside from the women's march. there was every kind of human being there.. many people had different issues that they were concerned about. could tell by the signs that they were carrying the way they were dressed or whatever, but, was true joy to feel like. There was that many people that cared enough to take their day and to go out there and march and, and be with each other and be in community with each other, even though we didn't all have the same issues. But it was a community saying, we care enough to make a statement. We care enough to show up for each other and we care enough that we are going to take our time and our energy and we're going to say this is not okay. that I find a great deal of joy in a great deal.

Leigh Morgan: 33:40

I like what you said because there was a lot of joy in saying, here's what our very diverse convictions. It could have had a different tone. Tone and tenor, Some righteous anger at some of the policies and the suffering that had been introduced. And I'm sure there, that was a part of it. If there were seven, you know, 70 to a hundred k, that turned out. But, but I love that that was one of your takeaways around this sense of connection and joy around something greater than ourselves. And it's where we can find many good, hearted. Well-intended folks that, voted for, Trump and others. And I know some of these folks, they wanna change. They just wanna change. And so when we really listen, okay, well then how can we do that together? In a way that isn't caustic and isn't blaming shame? And I think that's where we're gonna get the big breakthroughs. in our time left, I, want to get some pearls of wisdom from you. You've been a successful leader of, two very iconic businesses as we've talked about. What lessons can you share with listeners about how to. Bring people together across dimensions of difference. Again, maybe folks who don't agree with the agendas and views of folks on that march, but how do you do it on a day-to-day basis? Whether you're just trying to be super mom or you're a supervisor in a grocery store or an executive, running a large institution, what specific lessons would you offer?

Dawn Trudeau-2: 35:23

You said it earlier, I think it's listening. you don't really learn much when you're talking. You learn when you're listening and you're listening to others, you're doing that with humility and with a truly open mind that you might have some experience that I don't, and that I can learn from your experience or learn from it the impact that it had on you and, honor that, experience that you had. As being just as valid as any experience that I've had. And I think that's really the best way for us to bridge those divides is to to be genuinely curious and interested in the other human being, despite the fact that I might not agree there's a reason you feel the way you feel. There's a reason why you have come to the place that you've come to. And that's valid. It, it's very valid. So I can learn a lot by. By being open-hearted, open-minded, and believing in good intent in other people, even if I don't agree,

Leigh Morgan: 36:17

That's a powerful lesson because if we listen, it means someone's telling a story.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 36:22

yes.

Leigh Morgan: 36:23

And I did a podcast with an amazing storyteller, may, may. Fox was one of the first ones I did last year, and she shared some research about telling our stories that when we actually tell our stories, we actually changed brain chemistry. by listening and sharing when it's authentic. I mean, sometimes I can't listen, right? But when we're in that space of listening and sharing our stories. It creates new neural connections in our brain. And I don't know about you, but I need as many as possible these days. So, let's do whatever we can, but that's powerful. Be curious and listen, and it's free also listening. It's free.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 37:04

Yeah. Little time, you know, and, and a little brain, power, but we have that to offer, right?

Leigh Morgan: 37:11

We have a lot of that. And, you have this energy about you, Dawn I'm wondering what gives you the most hope about the world, even in sometimes troubling times.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 37:23

I'll go, I'll go back to the, protests on the 14th of June. They happen all. Around this country. They happened in red states, they happened in blue states, they happened in little towns. They happened in big towns. They happened in Hawaii. there was no place where there weren't people that were coming together to say, we want to assert our influence and our strength. Into this climate today. And again, not everybody was there for the same reasons, but they were there because they felt like there was a reason for them to show up and be in community with each other. And that does give me hope. That really does. Because it could have been, nobody showed up. It could have been violent. the Seattle police said that there was not any instance of property damage during that march. It was a mile and a half long of people. And I, I'll give you an an example. So, uh, at one point, a friend of mine. And I went on the sidewalk'cause the street was so crowded that it was just a little bit easier to walk. And we walked in front of this business that had some new planting strip right outside the business. And these, look like very, vulnerable plants. And I'm a, I'm a gardener. So,, I noticed these things and I watched everyone take great care to not step on the plant. There was no communication about that because you could just see that people were trying very hard to be as respectful as they could. And, another point brought tears to my eyes. We were passing a hotel and there were two women, who were cleaning women, and they were in the window and they were waving and they were crying. And when, people walked by, they waved back. I got tears in my eyes because it was like, here was the solidarity. We don't know them. They'll never know us, but there was solidarity there by them seeing people show up to say that they mattered. that was incredibly meaningful to me.

Leigh Morgan: 39:03

having, uh, chills hearing about that of how people showing up inspire other people, help probably, maybe help those women feel a little safer. And again, we don't know what their background is, so just to be really clear, we have none. So we don't wanna, literally stereotype. But if that happened to any one person. On that day, on that march in Seattle, then the world's a a little better place.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 39:28

Yes.

Leigh Morgan: 39:29

the notion of the world being a little better place, it tends to happen one person at a time

Dawn Trudeau-2: 39:34

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan: 39:35

and it can scale really fast. In fact, I think it is, I think there's a shift and I would just say to you, thank you. And, and others with the storm and across the. WNBA and the players who are just magical for bringing joy and demonstrating that these are places where we can come together in a physical space, watching on tv, getting excited about something greater than our individual selves. And so whether that's sports, whether it's at a, political event like the 14th, that is a wonderful contradiction and an antidote. To when we don't feel heard. When we don't feel seen. And, and the latter is where the roots of, grievance comes from and separation. And we are all about coming together. So thank you for the roles that you've had and the impact. Don, we, we really appreciate that.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 40:34

I think it's my, my duty and responsibility as a human being. do what I can to share, what I know to offer, what I can believe in good intent, and to come from a place of love and I can die a happy person if that's how I'm conducting my life.

Leigh Morgan: 40:52

I love that. And may I ask one last question? Just pulling those beautiful threats forward. If you had a magic wand, and I'm a big Lord of the Rings fan, so I think of Gandalf staff, it's a magic wand. What is one wish you would give listeners on how to hold strong to their convictions? Also bridge divides and be the kind of human that you just described.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 41:16

If I had a magic wand, I would use it to sprinkle empathy on everyone's head, because that's really where it comes from, is just believing that though we may be different. Your world is just as valid as my world is, maybe I don't fully understand it, but empathy to me is the key to human beings interacting with each other in a way that's, that's productive and and can really heal the world.

Leigh Morgan: 41:42

I can't think of a better way to end this podcast. A little sprinkle or maybe a downfall of empathy. How about that? Because we live in, we live in the northwest.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 41:54

Right.

Leigh Morgan: 41:55

Thank you for sharing your insights, how to bridge divides about women's basketball, about what the storm is doing uniquely here in this beautiful setting in the community that we are both a part of. Don, thank you for joining us on the space in between.

Dawn Trudeau-2: 42:11

Thank you. It was a real pleasure.

42:16

I hope you. Enjoyed this episode of the space in between podcast. If. If you did, please hit the like button and leave a review. Wherever you listen to the show. And check out the space. Space in between.com website, where you can also leave me a message.